Allowing Birth To Transform You: Hiwote's Journey from A Traumatic Birth to Two Restorative Births

Today we have yet another beautiful set of birth stories!

In this episode, we sit down with Hiwote whose journey through birth has been anything but straightforward. As an African woman in the American medical system, she had to learn what it truly means to advocate for yourself in spaces that were not built with you in mind.

She opens up about her first birth and the trauma it left behind, the red flags in care providers she sees in hindsight and the long, tender road to healing a dislocated tailbone that followed. Along the way, she did vaginal steaming as part of realigning her cycle.

But this is ultimately a story of redemption. Her second and third births tell a different story, one of a woman who showed up informed, empowered, and refused to be invisible. Raw, vulnerable, and deeply moving, this conversation is for every woman who has ever felt unheard in a delivery room, and for those still writing their own birth story.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Hello and welcome to the Back to Basics podcast. If you're joining us for the first time, this is a podcast for anyone walking the journey of birth, parenting and supporting those who are. In each episode, we come back to what matters most honest stories by African women, trusted guidance, and the kind of community that helps you trust yourself. I'm Nicole, and I'm so glad you're here. So take a breath because you're in the right place. So you can just tell us your name, a little bit about you, and yeah, how did you get to becoming Mama Whoever?

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Mama mean. Sure. Yeah. So my name is Hyuate. I am a mom of three. Almost forgot how many kids I had. I'm a mom of three. And I am a lactation counselor. Um, so I give um breastfeeding support um to moms. I'm from Ethiopia, but my husband is actually Kenyan, so we're a multicultural.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Yeah. I thought he was Rwandan.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

No, he's Kenyan. He's Kenyan.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Oh yeah. Um, but we live in Rwanda, so it's kind of a good middle point.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

African house.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Yes, yes. So yeah, that's a little bit about me. And then um, I guess how would you like me to start? Like which which parts should I start? Like, should I start straight from the labor or like just talk a little bit about the pregnancy, or how would you like so I want to know how you got to the point where you decided you wanted to be a mom, and I guess where your head was at with your first baby deciding you know what your birth choices were, whether it was the same.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Yeah, I just want to know how you got into the whole process of yeah, for me, I think.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah, I think I've always wanted to be a mom. Um, I don't know, you know, like I mean, I had this thing. My mom my mom had me when she was 25, so I always thought like that's uh a good age to have a child. But I think at the time that I got pregnant, um I mean I I knew I wanted to be a mom, but I wasn't like fully um ready, I feel like, because you know, everybody tells you you have to be financially stable and you have to have a nice job, you know, a nice house, whatever. Um, none of those things were in alignment. Then I was pretty shocked um when I found out that I was pregnant, like it was kind of I mean, like I knew was a possibility, but it was still like, oh my gosh, like how is this possible? Like I'm so I'm not ready. Um, but then I mean, like, you know, both my husband and I wanted to be parents, so we were like obviously once kind of the shock faded and like we kind of you know accepted that we were gonna have a baby, we were um very happy, but it wasn't easy. And I think for me, like I had worked um when I was doing my master's, I had worked on a project with doulas, so I I knew doulas existed and stuff, but this was particularly for like Muslim women where men cannot be present, so it was like for a Somali population, so like I kind of always thought, oh, like obviously they they need a doula because their partner is not gonna be there, and you know, um religiously, culturally, they have certain restrictions, but I never saw myself as someone who needed a doula because I was like England will be there, like my mom will be there, um, I'm gonna have a good support system. But then I started um reading books, and then um, you know, really like we were in the US at the time, so understanding like how the system works and stuff, and I was like, oh my god, like and particularly being a black woman, I was like, okay, I think it's really important to have um a doula, particularly I think for the racism aspect. So I was like, okay, I think I need somebody, you know, to help me navigate. And I remember I had reached out, I looked at a couple of doulas and I found one. And when I told my husband, he's like, I mean, I don't know what that is, but he's like, sure, like, let's go interview her um and go see. So I actually had started my uh follow-up with like an OBGYN, like a gynecologist, and then um I had a really terrible experience because from the get-go, I think that this was like probably like eight, nine weeks pregnant. Um, and she was like an African gynecologist because I was like, okay, at least she'll understand me. But she was extremely cold, like there was no emotion. And I remember from the first thing, she's like, if you don't have a miscarriage, and I was like, How do you start a pregnancy like visit with that? Because I'm a first-time mom, like obviously, that is like the last thing I want to hear. And I remember I'm like, I I don't wanna, I don't wanna continue with this, um, with this person. And I think I changed another Obi, just had a very similar experience again, and I was like, Okay, I want a midwife, and the midwife was still at the hospital, but she was much more warmer. Um, you know, at least she kind of had some like like there was an emotional part that to the to the to the to the what do you call it to the visit versus like them was very like medical, like your blood work is good, like there's nothing that about you as a person that they cared about, and I did not like that. So the midwife who was you know, I had a a good experience with her, and I had um like a late implantation bleeding, I think at 11 weeks, and for me obviously being a first-time mom, I didn't know like this could happen. I mean, I was freaking out. Um, and and then again, I had a really good experience with her again, so I decided to to go with her, and then we interviewed the doula at 20 weeks, and you know, we agreed we liked her, so we decided to to work with her. So I think we cut we had I don't know, maybe two or three visits after that with her to to do preparation, but like she gave me materials, she suggested books, things that I could do, and you know, everything was going well. Um still a tough time because we had some issue with our paperwork. Um, where like because we were on a work visa and my husband's work had made some mistake when his passport was renewed, like there was something that needed to be updated, so there was so much complication. So it was a very stressful time outside of the pregnancy. So um, and yeah, but anyways, like but I think for me, like I felt like my daughter, like I didn't know she was a girl at the time, I didn't know her gender, like I wanted to wait to find out. Um, but she was just such a source of comfort, and I think um, like, and then for me, I don't know, instinctually, I just like knew she was a girl, so I would talk to her like a girl. My husband would joke, like, oh my gosh, you know, you're this is gonna be a boy, and then he's gonna be so upset that you were talking like a girl. Um, because for him, like they're all four boys, and then I think they've only had one girl as a grandchild at that point, like because all the grandchildren were boys, so everybody was like, you know, it's like my grandson, my nephew, like they were a boy, but for me, like deep down, I just felt like um it was a girl. So, anyways, like everything went fine. I mean, I had a healthy pregnancy, but then um the third trimester I had like a low plate lit. Um, but besides that, I mean, everything was fine, I was healthy, I was active. Um, and then I remember so the midwife had put this thing in my mind because her due date was January 7th, um, which was no, it was January 1st actually. Um, but then based on my cycles calculation, it was January 7th. January 7th is like um Christmas in Ethiopia, like for Orthodox Christians, we celebrate on the 7th. So I was like, oh, what a due date. I mean, I knew she wouldn't probably not come on her due date, but then this midwife kept saying, Oh my gosh, I have a feeling you're gonna have a baby before Christmas, so this is like before like the like December 25th, and so I think she put that in my mind, and I was like, Oh, that would be like really nice, because and I think there was no like thought in my mind, I mean, I had dread about it. I knew that people can go past 40 weeks, but I had convinced myself that that was not gonna be me somehow. So, anyways, the 40 weeks comes, and like, I mean, obviously, there's nothing like um I think I don't know if I did a cervical check. I feel like I mean I had avoided it for a while, maybe I did it, and then um she said, I think I was like two centimeters dilated or something like that, but nothing happened, and like yeah, I mean I kept going, and then like Maidula had kept telling me, like, yeah, you know, you can go like up to 42 weeks, like she'd always say that. And I was like, No, like um, you know, my head only me, this is impossible. Like, anyways, um, then 41 weeks hits, and then the midwife obviously she works out of hospital, just starts to change her tone. So, like, just urgency, like you're gonna have to get induced, and you know, the risk of stillbirth is high, like just a lot of scary things, like, oh, you know, so I don't want to avoid a c-section, just yeah, it became like all these things, and I remember I like I had, yeah, I I mean, I had so then like this the whatever the induction was scheduled for 42 weeks, and then she like had comforted me saying, I'm gonna be on call that day, so it's gonna be like we'll guide you through it, all of that. But I just was not convinced, like, and I was like, Okay, like I mean, I talked to my doula, what can I do? So she's like, Oh, go get adjusted by a chiropractor. I mean, I went and got adjusted by a chiropractor. Then she was like, You can do acupuncture, and I did acupuncture, like was really nice, like it was relaxing, and actually contraction started, but then um tapered off, and then um, yeah, like she did the membrane sweep, all of the things, but like, you know, my baby was like, Yeah, um, I'm not ready. I'm not ready. Yeah, and then I remember she had told me, like, hey, like maybe you should um meditate or like talk to the baby and stuff. And then, you know, I had kind of gone in a dark room and I was like praying and whatever, meditating. I'm not a person who used to meditate, but I was like, okay, if this is like if this works, I'll do whatever it takes to have this baby. Um, and then I was literally talking to my baby, like begging this baby. I was like, please come because I don't want any of these interventions. I want to have a natural bird, like, so please, please, please, please just like come, you know. Um, and you know, the contractions would start, but then they would stop. Like, contractions were start, they would stop, and then eventually, like, um, I, you know, like Maidula had mentioned, well, people do castor oil, like, it doesn't always work for them. Um, for some people it does. I mean, obviously, you can talk to your your midwife, and the midwife was like, she's like, obviously, like I'm not gonna take any liability, which whatever you're gonna do in your home. But she's like, I mean, you can try it, like it's your choice. Um, so then I take this castor oil, and um I think like, yeah, obviously, castor oil is like uh an intestinal stimulant, like stimulant, so like it will cause some contractions in the intestines, and later that can cause like actual contractions and then send you into labor. But for some people it doesn't work out, but it does have like it, it does like clean, like it's a laxative, so it cleans out your um gut, so like you can have diarrhea. Some people have vomiting, so I did have some, I think diarrhea, but then and then contraction started, but nothing really happened. But then like conduction is like happening on Monday now, and I think we're um this is Friday, and I'm literally like in so much distress because I was like, I don't want to be induced, like, because I had about all the effects of Pitocin and then epidural, but also like I I couldn't take an epidural because my platelets were quite low, and the risk I think they said the risk of bleeding out from when they put the needle was slightly higher. They still would give it to you, but it's like it's not recommended, so I didn't want an epidural, anyways, to begin with. But I was like, oh my gosh, like I just don't, yeah, I don't see myself. So, anyways, I'm like, you know, I'm waiting, and then people are making comments at this point because everyone is like, oh my god, you know, like is the baby here? Is the baby here? And that was creating so much stress for me. Um, because I was like, I can't bring, like, I'm not in control here. Like, you know, there's nothing that I can do, like the baby's not ready, like the baby's not coming. But I remember like there was particularly a day where like I kind of gave my phone to um my husband and mom, and I was like, I'm not, you know, and I was very grateful because my mom was very supportive. She's like, Hey, don't hear what they're saying, like your baby will come when she's ready. And she always like she would take the calls and like defend me. And she's like, No, I think you know, her due date is not there yet. Like, she kind of was like trying to obviously, because people are like, they think due date is like this deadline where baby has to come. So you know, she would say that. And there was, I think, a friend of mine that had a due date before me, it was her second child, but also she had like she had had her first, I think, at 38 or 39 weeks, so she delivered before me. So then that was even another stress because everyone was like, Oh my gosh, you were due before her, and yeah, it was like it was very stressful. So, anyways, this is like Saturday morning. I'm just like you know, sitting and just like super like discouraged because I was like, I'm about to get induced. Um, and then she calls me. The I get a call, and then she's like, Hey, this is Jenny, your midwife. Um, and I was like, Okay, and then she's like, I think we made a mistake. Like, I just had I just went and reviewed your charts with like another OB, and I feel like probably like the January 7th due date is probably more likely. And I literally was like balling my eyes. I was like, Are you kidding me? Like, you caused me so much so yeah, like so much. So she's like, So we'll give you another week to make it to like 42 weeks. So, anyways, again, like I was like, Okay, sure, but I think I was just so under so much stress, so obviously my baby was not, you know, feeling safe to come. And again, the whole week went like went on again, and I think I did the castor oil again on a Saturday, and then it did start labor, but it was quite slow. So I was like having back-to-back contractions, and I did make a mistake because I think I was so excited not to get induced. My doula kept telling me, like, I think you're still early on, don't go to the hospital, don't go to the hospital. And then I was like, But like, I've had you know, I've been in labor for like eight hours, like I wanna go, so we go, um, and then they check me and they said I think I was like I think they said I was three and a half centimeters or something like that. Um, but they're like, You're not an active labor, and then they're like, you can take a walk in the hospital, um, and then like see if labor starts or something. But I was really exhausted. But immediately when I got there, like my contraction stopped, everything stopped, and nothing happened. So then I went back home, like slept, got you know, got some rest, and I was waiting for this baby again for the labor to start, and nothing happened. And then like we hit Monday, and then it was induction day. And then what happened then was my doula was at another labor because you know, she yeah, and she was like not done, so like I was already super discouraged. I didn't want, and then this lady kept saying, Oh, you know, like the midwife that I paired you with, she's like a retired midwife, and she actually got back to do this because she's so passionate about it, all of this, all of that. But I mean, I didn't know her, so anyways, we go, um, and they checked me I was four centimeters, and then they said, Well, because the initially the in my birth plan I had before I do Pitocin, I like obviously if I was not dilated enough, I wanted to do the foley catheter, like the foley bulb, like the balloon thing, but they're like you're already four centimeters, so we're gonna go straight to Pitocin. So, anyways, they um they start me with Pitocin. My doula is not here at this point, and you know how Pitocin is, is like it's extremely painful. The contractions are extremely painful, um, and they're very back to back. Like, it's not like you don't get a break on like natural labor, it's like back to back, back to back, and like really strong. Um, and I think I I was pretty much on the lowest dose because I was already kind of in labor, like it just kind of um jump-started the labor. But then I had a nurse because yeah, I mean, it was really painful, and I would like uh I mean, I was trying to breathe and stuff, but I just I was already like my mindset because my doula is not there, like you know, just like all the things that I had imagined for my birth are not. Um and then my mom was not supposed to stay with us for the labor. My either my sister or brother-in-law were supposed to come pick her up, but they were a bit late because the induction was scheduled like very early on, and so it was and she was stressed, obviously. And then we um my husband was trying to put like some music and essential oils, and she's like, What are you guys doing? This is the time to pray, guys. Like, this is not the time. She always we always make fun of her for that, and then um, and then I think I labored for four hours, so I would say like um without a doula or anything. So she so the doula always has a backup doula to come and uh be at the labor. But I think for me, because I didn't know who this person is, she always said like it's gonna be a hundred percent someone who will align with you, but she never like gave me a list or gonna be, yeah. So I mean this was abstract to me, but I was like, all right, I mean it's better than nothing. So, anyways, they checked me after laboring. I mean, it was very painful, and um, and I was like unsettled because I was just like, I think under so much stress, like, and then they checked me, I was still four centimeters, and I absolutely lose it because I was like, I cannot do this, like there is no way I can do this for any longer. It's been four hours. I I haven't even like progressed like a single centimeter. I was like, this is like yeah, I can't do this. Yeah, so then my husband, I told him, I think it's time to call the doula, and at that point, my sister-in-law had come. Um, and then I mean, she was really trying to like tell me, and I remember like yelling at my mom and her at that point. My sister-in-law also had three kids. My mom had three kids, and I was like, You guys are insane! Like, how do you guys have three kids? Because this is this is like unbearable, you know? And then the back of doula comes and oh my goodness, she just was incredible. She just had this like just authority, and I don't know, just this presence, like, and she was like, get up, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. She got a peanut bowl, like, and you know, doing this, and then the midwife was horrible because the entire like four hours that I was laboring with, you know, um, without the doula, she kept telling my mom, she needs to get an epidural, she needs to get an epidural, because she's like, I had an epidural, I had an epidural. She's like an older woman, and she's like, During my time, when you have an epidural, you can't move, like, you know, she's like your entire body's numb, but now like it's really good, it's only like you know, it only numbs that part, and the delivery's gonna be good, blah blah blah. And then then nurses were like scolding me, saying, Oh my gosh, you know, it's it's only been four hours. If you're gonna be like this, you're gonna really have a hard time. Da-da-da-da-da. Um, it was a like a really young nurse, and I was just like, I just wish you are not here. Like, I just don't wanna be, um, I don't want, like, I don't want you to be here because they were just like stressing me out. So, anyways, my doula came and then, you know, she's a black woman. She just like, yeah, she just like owned the space. She was asking them these questions and telling them, and she's like, I don't want you to tell her like how many centimeters she is. Like, we're just gonna go with this and um kind of figure out how it is. So I labored for 12 hours without an epidural, well, for 10 hours without an epidural, and then I was like really, really um it just I was in a lot of pain. I mean, I was in a lot of pain because the contractions were back to back. I was tired, I was exhausted, and I was sad at the same time because I was like, everything I imagined about my birth had gone out the window. So they were like, oh, well, we can give you some pain meds through an IV. Okay, I didn't know this was an opioid. This is like fentanyl. So they would give it to me, and it's like you feel the pain, but you're high, pretty much. Like you're numbered I'm feeling the pain, but I'm just like so. Super buzzed, um, but it only stays for one hour, and then you have to add another one after an hour. And then at that point, the nurses change shifts. So a new nurse came, and she was truly an angel. Like, she was incredible. Cause she came to me and she's like, after I got it two times, she's like, I want to be honest with you. She's like, You don't want to take this again because your baby's gonna be born sleepy. Cause this is a this is like a serious, yeah. Like, oh my gosh. So I remember like that. I kind of like I was like, okay, I don't want it again. But I was like, how am I gonna do this? And this midwife, mind you, she kept telling me. So this was like Monday morning. She was like, Yeah, you're probably not gonna have a baby till Tuesday. That's literally what she was telling me while I'm in, you know, so much.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

What was she doing?

SPEAKER_00 22:49

She was my goodness, and then, anyways, this nurse comes in and she's very active and she's like, This is how I was, don't worry, like you can do this. I know it's hard. And then I asked, Okay, like, if I don't take, if I don't take any like pain medication, can I be in the water, like to cope? And because I was induced, they had the monitor. That was also the other thing that made the labor really difficult because with Petulson, you have to have continuous monitoring. So they had these like belt-looking monitors where they're monitoring the baby's heartbeat. But every time I have a contraction, like the natural instinct was like to rip it off because it was like I was already having a contraction. There's something else again constricting me. And because it's kind of an elastic. So when you're um when my uh uterus would contract and my belly would kind of like contract, that thing would contract with it, and I just hated it. And then they would run and then like come put a bug, they would run and come put a bug, like you can't do that because we need to see if the baby's tolerating this. And in that, I mean, I was like, I was in a different world, so I was like, I don't care, like I just like want this thing on me. So, anyways, we go in the water, it was such a pain too because they were like they have to find a separate type of monitor that's I guess waterproof. Uh, but the midwife was so against it. Um, and I remember like actually, like, yeah, I uh this like the most traumatic part of it, I think for me was like she would come in, and I was at this point, I was in transition. I didn't know, but I was like, like, yeah, I was like, I can't do this. Like, I mean, I was losing my mind, and I was in the water, and the water was giving me like you know, a little bit of um um what is it, like relief, but because like again, the contractions were so unnatural, it was really hard. And I and then she would come and I would like obviously I would be like like maybe I would scream or something, and then should come like she would close her ears like this and walk out of the bath, yeah. And mind you, she this is the retired midwife that showed up, like that came because she loves midwifery so much, anyways. I yeah, and then I remember like that that is like ingrained in me because I remember her just doing that and getting out of the bathroom. But I mean, that nurse really helped me, at least I think maybe for an hour or two, I did that and I was like, I cannot do this. I'm like, I need an epidural because she still kept telling me I'm not gonna give birth um until Tuesday. And so after I think after laboring 12 or 13 hours, I was like, I I'm I need an epidural. And I had made my husband promise that he wouldn't give it to me because no matter how desperate I am, because of the low platelets. But I remember so like that whole that that was a whole begging him, trying to convince him because I was like, I really need this, like I can't do this, like I need this epidural. And then even the people like the anesthesiologist would come and they're like, Oh, if you don't calm down, we can't do the epidural because you know you can't move and so I understand, but it was just the way they were talking to me was so rude, like no empathy was kind of, yeah, they kept like talking about me in third person while I'm sitting there. Um, anyways, and eventually my doula and my husband, like, I'm I mean, they let and then my mom is here, mind you, my sister-in-law is here, like it's like kind of a mess, like there's no calmness whatsoever. And then okay, they told them, okay, you guys need to step out, and then we're gonna place the epidural. So, anyways, my doula was like, you know, you cannot move for these, like, even if you have a contraction, like you have to hold me, and she's like, You have to stay still until like they place this um this needle. I mean, that was really hard, like, because they they kind of timed it in a way where like I was done with a contraction, but then they were so back to back. Like, I I was, I mean, and then I remember a contraction came and I was literally like, I think my husband said I was gonna I like I was holding his ears and I was almost gonna rip them out because of how um how much I had to stay still with a contraction. So, anyways, I do this at but uh I so I do this epidural, but then it doesn't work because I was so progressed in transition, and then I don't know the way they placed it, only my right leg was numbed, and then everything else was I could still feel the contraction. And they were like, you can you know you can up it and increase it, but it wasn't really working. And then my doula was like, You don't want to increase it to the max because when it's time to push, like you do want to feel um something, you do want to feel something so that you can push the right way. And I had actually witnessed um like a family member of mine who was like who was using the epidural, like, and I mean she got an epidural really early on, and when she was pushing, she couldn't push. So I remember she had popped like a blood vessel in her eye because she was just not using the correct muscles because she was completely not, and eventually she ended up with a c-section. So for me, I knew the goal at that point became I don't want a c-section because I had seen the recovery, the complications and stuff. So I was literally like, I just want a vaginal bird, like at this point, because everything I've not had all these interventions at this interventions at this point. So, anyways, after the epidural, even though it was not working, I was like, you know, I was there like the whatever going through the thing. There was like a little bit of numbing, so I was kind of tolerating it, and then I get to so then she's like, Can I check you? I was like, Okay, sure, check me. And then um, I don't know, the lady was just so so Maidula was kind of seeing you know her check it, and then she was like, uh, maybe you're like an eight or something. That's what the um the midwife was saying, and then my doula was like, You're a nine, you're nine, like she kind of kept telling me. I think it was encouraging, and then I think shortly, yeah, after an hour, um, she checked me again and she's like, You're 10 centimeters. She's like, Would you like to wait for the labor to progress, or would you like to push it? I was like, I want to be done. Like, I wanna be done. Cause I was, I was just, yeah, I was so done. So then I think for 45 minutes, and then her head came out, and then once her head came out, I don't obviously I don't know what was happening on that side. I don't think she was stuck. She she claims that she was tight, and then she pulled, um, she pulled her neck and like pulled the baby out. So at that point, my tailbone got dislocated, and my baby like had a serious um strain to her neck. But I felt this till later, and then obviously she like the baby came out and they placed her on me. And at that point, I didn't even care whether it was like a boy or a girl. I didn't like, you know, but I was literally I remember the first thing I said to her was like, I knew you, like I saw her, and I don't know why I'm getting emotional, but I just felt like I knew her, you know. Like, anyways, she's placed on my chest, and then my sister-in-law comes and she's like, Oh my gosh, it's a girl, it's a girl. And then I was like, You see, like I told you guys I knew that, you know, I I was having a girl, but you guys didn't believe me. So it was like such an emotional, like it was so euphoric, like to just have her, and it was just so much relief after um everything that happened, and then I wanted to do like I had requested to do like a delayed um, you know, cord clamping and all of these things, and obviously they didn't respect any of that. Um, they were like, Oh, the cord is too short, so the cord was cut pretty, you know, prematurely. I mean, they waited maybe a few minutes, but I don't like it wasn't didn't finish pulsating or anything like that. Um, and then the placenta came out, and then I started hemorrhaging, so it wasn't like super severe, but I had quite a bit of bleeding, and then she was like, You need to take pitocin. And at that point, I was like, absolutely not, like I was no cervidal, I think it was kind of uh cervedal, I believe is what it is called. And I was like, absolutely not. I was like, I was resisting, and then at that point, my actual doula had also come because she was done with her birth, and then she was explaining to me, oh, you know, that kind of just helps. Um, like that kind of helps with just like maybe I guess helping the uterus contract better or something because I think pitocin can cause um hemorrhaging because the uterus is so done from like it has been over contracting, right? Yeah, overwork that it doesn't like it can't, it's like it can't do the work. But then I remember like, yeah, I was like resisting, and then they were like, Well, you know, like let them give it to you because I think it's much better than like getting a blood transfusion or something, but then the bleeding kind of subsided on its own, so it didn't need to happen. And then she said, Oh, you know, like you didn't really have a tear, like it's like it's almost like a scratch, but she's like, I'll stitch you up anyways. Um, and she did the stitches and all of that, and then um, yeah, so my baby actually did the breast crawl, like once they placed her on my chest, she crawled to the breast herself, which was so beautiful to witness because I was like, Oh my gosh, like I had read about this and I didn't think it would actually happen. Um, and then you know, obviously, like I was she was nursing and stuff, and she was um she was fine, but then I was like still in so much pain. Um, and I think kind of a cool thing to mention was like, so she was born at like 1157, like three minutes before midnight. And if she was born that day, she would have had a birthday that like the same, she would be born the same day as my best friend, who if it was a girl, I had promised to be her godmother, and then she was born the next day, she would have had a same birthday with my um sister-in-law, but I don't know, maybe was me saying, like, I didn't want to wait for the labor to progress, but I truly feel like she kind of chose her her godmother because they share a birthday, so um, but anyways, all of that happened. I went to recovery, but I was in so much pain still, right? Because I don't know, this is my first time giving birth, and I was like, I'm in so much pain, and they're like, Oh, we can give you oxy. And I was like, No, like oxy caught on, and I was like, There's no way I'm putting any more medication because I've literally pumped this baby with so much medication. Um, there's no way I'm doing it. I was like, I'll tell her, yeah, okay, at least myself. I'm like, I'm gonna tell it. I'm like, this this baby just got here and she's been pumped with everything. And I was like, I'm not doing that. And um, uh so a black midwife came the next morning and she was on call, and I told her, Hey, like, I'm in a lot of pain still because I couldn't get like when I would get up and then when I would try to sit, I was just in an excruciating amount of pain, like really, really, really painful. Like I was in tears, and then she said, This is not normal. She said, You either have a broken or dislocated tailbone, and there was no way to check at that point. But after I was um discharged, I did get an x-ray, and yes, my tailbone was um dislocated. I mean, it could be from the labor, but I strongly feel like it was from the time she kind of um pulled the baby out because um, yeah, that's kind of what I feel, but that was that, and then obviously, because of all the interventions, the baby had um like borderline, severe jaundice, um, and then she had lost a lot of weight, which now I know now I know that you know she was pumped with so much fluid. Obviously, she lost a lot of weight, um, like by the I think by the 24-hour mark or something. So they were stressing me out, saying, like, oh, you have to supplement with formula and you have to do this. So that was a whole story. But after that birth, it took a whole year to recover from the tailbone dislocation. Um, and so that was, I mean, it was rough, but I think it was such a transformative birth because, in a way, I mean, I was happy because I had advocated to the ability that I had and the knowledge that I had for my daughter to be born at least um in a way that I desired and in a way that was best for her, but I think um it was still traumatic because I remember I always wanted to like every time people would, you know, come to visit me or something, I wanted like to share my bird stories just so that someone could tell me like that was not okay, like what happened to you was not okay, but obviously nobody was interested. Um, but I remember my doula had mentioned to me at that time, she said that my bird was also had really transformed in the way she approaches doula work because you know how some people are like, Oh, doula's they can support you, but they shouldn't advocate for you or something like that. And she was like, She's like, that was something else, and she had actually told me to um file a complaint with the medical board, but I think I was just so done. I was like, um, just but I I knew that if I had a second baby or when I had a second baby that unless it's like a life and death situation, that I would not get near a hospital because I just had a terrible experience. And I think a lot of people had told my husband and I, um, oh, you know, like when you leave the hospital, you're gonna feel so sad because you know, they you're on your own to take care of the baby. Um, and you know, they help you so much. And we had the complete opposite experience where we really felt like so relieved and free after leaving the hospital versus what other people said. So that was kind of how the first birth went.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Okay, well, I mean, I listened to your story and my heart, like it just it gets so tight, you know. Because we've normalized just abusing women in the name of like a live baby and a live woman, right? But that should be the bare minimum, right? It's it's no business, like even from the stress they were causing in your pregnancy, it's it's all so unnecessary. And then it's been framed in a way like, oh, it's pregnancy that's stressful, you know? There's all these things that could go wrong, but it's but if you're planting these issues in someone's head, yeah, and nothing, and most times nothing ends up happening, like you're okay, right? And then you end up just having to deal with all this anxiety your whole pregnancy, and then in your birth, they just you're just a body, it's it's so unfair, like you and your baby, and then at the end they're like, But as long as mom and baby are alive, but it's like no, you're you're carrying all this trauma, you and your baby, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Cause I got a lot of that, and I think culturally as Africans too, it's like, yeah, I mean, because we hear like the extreme stories, it's like, yeah, because I remember I would be like, you know, crying out of the blue. Obviously, there's like the hormonal shift, everything, and then everyone is like, you should be happy, like, you should be grateful because you're healthy, your baby's healthy. And I was like, Yeah, but I was so traumatized, like, I mean, I'm healthy, like physically. I mean, but still I wasn't even healthy physically because I had like a major injury that really prevented me from moving, really made me struggle with breastfeeding. And um, but I think I always say like breastfeeding was particularly like one of the most healing parts because I think even for that I had to fight, but that would be like a you know a whole different tangent of the story. But I think because I fought for that and it worked out, I just felt like I in a way, like there was I and I like I was able to undo some of the damages from the birth, and that just like gave me so much um peace because despite our struggles, yeah. My my daughter breastfed for like two years and three months, I think. And um, it was such an amazing bond. Like, I mean, it was like incredible. So that was a blessing because even me now, like, you know, obviously being in that work, I always tell people, yeah, like obviously it definitely matters how you birth, but for me, like especially, especially if your birth doesn't go, you know, as planned. I think breastfeeding is such an incredible way to to like give to your baby to to to nourish and heal um a lot of that stuff. So that was kind of the so that that definitely helped me um heal a lot.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

Yeah, and I think like there's two ways you could approach it, like if you have a traumatic birth, right? Especially since you don't have a culture that gives you the support after, even after they've like wrecked this whole experience for you, like they don't support you in the after, right? So you either I notice you either become I'm never doing that again, like we need to find a different way, or it's kind of like it just it haunts you, or maybe you just put it to birth being just a very traumatic, horrible experience that you get to get this cute baby afterwards, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yeah, yeah, exactly. A lot of women are like that, right? So a lot of moms are like I'm never having another child again, like this is too much. Um it's fair, but yeah, and I yeah, I mean I absolutely agree. But I think that was such a I knew that I had to approach um my second birth differently. I don't know if you want to move on to the next birth story, but um and like it still wasn't easy, but I think um it was like the best case scenario. So a month after I had my firstborn, we moved to a different state. Also really difficult because I mean it's like a place where we didn't know a single person and stuff, but my husband got a job and then um we had to move, and it was a pretty good offer, like you know, the salary, the benefits, like it was really good, and we had we just had a baby, so we're like, okay, like I guess we have to make um that sacrifice. So we went. Um, it was a you know was a hard adjustment and stuff, but because I was so like I was not even six weeks postpartum when I like I didn't even have that six week postpartum check when I moved there. I had to find somebody, but I knew I couldn't go back to the hospital, so I searched and searched, and I found a midwife like at a birth center that would be able to do it. So I went, I met with her, you know, we had like you know, a postpartum visit because she does women's health like visits too. So, you know, she was able to say, like, yeah, everything's fine, whatever. And then I would visit her like here and there, um, because she was also like she had done some training in like um functional medicine, which is like I guess a more like holistic type of medicine. So she was able to do a lot more than just midwifery, so kind of followed up, followed through with her for you know the rest of my time there. So I got pregnant. I found out that I was pregnant actually a month after my daughter's first second birthday, and I mean it was like very exciting and stuff, so I went back to her. I did want to shadow like a couple of midwives just to see um what was out there, but I just I remember like I didn't find anybody that really um resonated with me, but also I had built this relationship with her, so it was kind of special to just continue with her, so I chose to continue with her. Um, and you know, like compared to the hospital where you got like 15-20 minutes of like per visit, you had an hour and an hour and a half with a midwife. Yeah, and that element is so beautiful, it's so refreshing. You get to ask all your questions, they you know, they talk about nutrition, they talk about all like your just mental, physical, well-being, everything, and um, you know, and it's also like important because you have to be very low risk to birth with them. Otherwise, if you have any other um like conditions, if you get high blood pressure, like or diabetes, like you would have to um uh you would you would get out of like they you can't continue in their care. So, anyways, I really loved it, and the pregnancy was quite different. I was really sick. Um, yeah, I mean, like I was sick with my first two. I had a lot of nausea until like about 20 weeks, but this one I was literally like throwing up the entire pregnancy, um, not in a way that I was losing weight, or it wasn't like hyper hypermissius or what that level, but I was like, I would like I had vomiting. Um, but I remember also was very different because the with my daughter, I had so much aversion to uh coffee and meat, and with this pregnancy, I was like, I wanted all the meat and you know, all the protein and stuff, and I was very active. I was actually doing um strength training until I was like about 25 weeks. Um, so I mean I was very fit. We would go hiding. Utah, you Utah is so beautiful. So we would go hiking, you know, on a mountain like every weekend, we would walk, and I was actually. I would always go to the park with my daughter, like it was really good. And then I also found a really amazing um black Jula to support me. So you know, I had just like I had set up a really good um support system, but then when I was I think about 28 weeks pregnant, um we like it was like just it's a whole big story in and of itself, but like um our visa, like what is it, the the work, because it was a work visa, like something had happened, things went south, and then we would have had to leave the US at that point. So finding that out when you're like seven months or six months, yeah, like I mean it was extremely stressful. And we had been both my husband and I had been there like 11 and 12 years at that point. We had lived in the US. Um, so like it was, I mean, it was gonna be like a whole new um experience. Luckily, like, I mean, there's like a grace period and stuff they give you to leave and stuff, so I was able to have the baby there, but it was still very stressful because I knew that we had to completely pack up our lives and move to I don't know where, like, once I had the baby. But I remember I think the difference between again a midwife and like you know, the obese is like my midwife literally even offered for us to stay at her house if we wanted to like ship our stuff or get rid of our stuff, like that's how much of a connection you know we had, and she was just so helpful, like they were helpful. Um, all the people I mean, again, like the just like giving us discounts and waiving our fees and stuff, just so that you know, our transition would be easier for us, so it was just an amazing experience. So, anyways, I like I knew it was a boy because I mean I felt like it because just the pregnancy was very different, and I had like this like super weird rash on my face, and actually, oh kind of my whole body, and then my midwife was like, Yeah, boys, do that. So, I think it's a boy. So we decided to find out because we were gonna be traveling, we're like, okay, like maybe we have to buy um, you know, the things that if it's a boy, like because we had uh like we have to buy stuff or something, let's just get prepared. So we decided to find out, and then obviously it was a boy. I was honestly like prep, I wanted a girl, not because I didn't want a boy, but I think given like the stress and everything, like I just wanted what I already knew. Um and so, but then I was like, yeah, I mean I'm a quick question. Yeah this is how many years apart are your two kids? So they're two years and nine months because I found out that I was pregnant like a month after her second birthday, which means I got pregnant like pretty much on her second birthday. Okay, so at least your tailbone had recovered in every yes, so my tailbone had recovered, and then um, yeah, but I was like in chiropractic care, like I was doing public floor therapy because I mean, um, at that point I had learned about all these things, so I was really and I, you know, I had the resources at the time, so I was like, okay, yeah, we're gonna do all the things and make sure, like I and I mean I would my nutrition, I was very focused on like you know, really eating healthy and all of that. So it was a pretty good pregnancy, despite like obviously the discomfort of the vomiting and stuff. I went, I was pretty healthy, and then um, so I was like, okay, 40 weeks rolls around. Um, obviously, not like no, actually at 38 weeks, I start having pro-dormal labor. Like, I felt like I was in labor because actually the first time I had it, we were like eating dinner at a friend's house, and like I was having like really consistent contractions, and then we're like, okay, like maybe we should go home. Because you know how they say sometimes um second babies come early, they come fast. So I was like, okay, maybe this is different. So I go home, I was having contractions all night, and then at night in the morning, it's gone. So this went on for like two and a half weeks. I mean, I would have a contraction and I was like, oh my gosh, it's go time, like it's labor. And I didn't want actually to go into labor at that time because my my dad was gonna come help us move out of the US. Um, my mom couldn't come at the time, but I had also requested, given how she was stressed, I didn't want her at the birth. And also I wanted her to help me more postpartum. So I was like, hey, when we come, like you'll help me postpartum. So let him come help us. And then so, but he wasn't because I was like, hey, like come close to 40 weeks. He came, I think, like two days before. Um yeah, I was 40, I think he came around like 41 weeks or something. So, anyways, for three weeks I was having these contractions, these contractions, and I didn't opt to do like a cervical check until 41 weeks. And at 41 weeks, I do a cervical check, and I think she said I was about um four centimeters. So she was like, Oh, you know, all of that pro-normal labor, I think it's doing work, like you're dilating and all of that. Um, so then um, you know, I was like, okay, like then we go a few days, um, and then yeah, like so. I think uh two days after she checks me because he was born at 41 and four. She checks me, and then um she's like I think she said I was five centimeters or five and a half, something like that. And then like one of the midwives was like, because for me, I was getting super tired, and also the longer we waited, the harder the move would be because I would have to move so much sooner postpartum. I wanted like I wanted him to be born quickly so that we can kind of focus on um getting ready to leave. So then I was waiting, I would do things like I would, you know, do the curb walking with my doula, um, which is all the things you can think of. I was doing, and this boy was not, um, he was not like you know, he was not coming, he was very comfortable. And but actually, one thing that happened at 33 weeks, I was like laying down at night, and I hear this, like I feel this very drastic move, and then like I could kind of feel like something kind of tickling me like down. Um what what do you call it, like from below, and I was like, oh my gosh, I think this boy went breach, and then the next got an appointment, and then they're trying to find his heartbeat like on the lower part of my my belly, and he was not there, and then they went up and they're like, Yup, and then it was so crazy as they were doing that, it's like foom, and then like goes back head down again. Oh my god, I know they're like he has so much space, so they're like, I guess that's what he's doing, and because I thought she had touched him or something, she's like, I didn't do anything, he just did that, but that kind of created fear in me in a way because I was like, Oh my gosh, now if he is able to go back breach again, like what am I gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 51:06

So that now for a birth center or a home birth, yeah, birth center.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

So I was like at a birth center, was a birth center, and we had made all these plans, like, you know, obviously if I needed to transfer, we want where I would transfer, like how they would do it, and with them, like they actually go with you, you know, whether it's in an ambulance or in your own car, they would go, they would wait there for you, see you, and then um obviously when you're at the hospital, you do the postpartum there, but after you get discharged, you do the you still do like the postpartum care with them because they visit you obviously much more frequently than um the hospital, which is at six weeks. So, anyways, we're doing this, and for me, obviously at the birth center, there's a cutoff of 42 weeks, so I was like, I was getting close. Um, and but she was very confident, and then so this is at 41 and 40s. I had an appointment, I did the non stress test, they did an ultrasound, everything like everything looked great, and then she said, Let me check you, and then she checks me and she said, You're six centimeters, like I think I was fully effaced, and then she said the water bag is bulging, so she said, Can I break the water and I make you stay here? And I don't know. I mean, I guess I was like, No, because that's gonna put me out of time, but I don't want you to break my water, and she's like, But he's so low. Like, she's like, I'm pretty sure he's gonna come. And I was like, No, and then she's like, Okay, so she said, We have options, we can wait, you can do castor oil again, or I break the water, which you have not consented to. So I was like, Okay, I'll do castor oil. Because she said, What she said, I guess what kind of convinced me not to do the her to break my water was like, But if I break the water and there's no labor, we would still have to do castor oil. And I was like, then what's the point? Like at that point, I should just take the castor oil, so with water, yeah, break um, you know, on its own. So she her mixture was a bit different than the first one that I had because the first one was like, I think I took it with just orange juice, but her, she had I don't know, some cream and stuff, and I mean it tasted horrible, like it's the worst thing ever. And then I she gave it to me, I drank it, and then she told us when this baby comes, he's gonna come really fast. So she said, as soon as you have the first contraction, I need you in the car, because otherwise you're gonna have a home birth. Like, I'm gonna have to be in there. And so I was like, okay, and then she said it can work in one hour, it can work in three hours, it can work in five hours. So yeah, but she's like, as soon as you have a contraction, you have to come back. So I drink this thing, I go home, like I mean, like an hour passes. I was talking to my best friend who's like my daughter's godmother. Um, and then like I remember I was telling her this void's not coming, like I feel discouraged, and like there's all these things, and she was also to come help me postpartum, but she was in a different state, so she was gonna travel, so she was just like kind of getting updates of what's happening, and then I eat lunch, and then uh at this point, I think three and a half hours have passed, uh, three hours have passed, I believe. I eat lunch and then I was like super discouraged because I was like, man, like you know, this guy, like this boy is like she said the water bag is bulging, like he's super low. Like, why is he not coming? So, anyways, I just tell my husband, I'm like, I'm very tired, so I'm gonna take a nap. So my daughter is like, you know, she sleeps with us, so she's on the bed on the other side sleeping, and I'm on the bed. And I had maybe laid down for like 10 or 15 minutes, and then I hear like a pop sound, and then like my water starts gushing. Then I get up and I was like, Oh my gosh, babe, my water broke, and immediately I was hit with like serious diarrhea. And then I just had to go sit on the toilet, but then the toilet, as you know, is like the diet more intense, and this baby was already super low, and I was already six centimeters, so like my husband was like, I can see the head, so we have to go, but then for me, I'm like, I'm having diarrhea, like I can't go, and going, yeah, no, no, no, not only that, but in my head, I was like, I had a 15-hour labor with my daughter, so you know, I was really like convincing my brain that it's gonna be longer so that I don't think it's gonna be shorter and then get discouraged. So I was like, Oh, I'll probably labor for like four hours or six hours, and then my husband was like, We need to go. So when he called my midwife, she's like, You guys need to go, like, need to come right now. But I was like not feeling good at this point. I was like, okay, we find a diaper, I put on a diaper because my water is also still leaking, and I'm having these, like, you know, very strong contractions. But I think I had practiced so much on how to breathe, and I was using this app called Christian Hypno Birthing, and you know, they have like Bible verses and like affirmations, and I always would listen to that, so I was like breathing, and they also would teach you like how to like how to count when you're breathing in, how to count when you're breathing out. So I was doing all of that so I wasn't like screaming or I wasn't in pain or you know, anything like that. Like, I just was like, Yeah, I was going through the the emotions. I was and then I was like, he's like, we really have to go. So at this point, um like we get my daughter and all of that. The plan was not for my dad to come, but he was there. The plan was after I delivered, then we would send like an Uber for my dad to come see the baby and all of that. Then my dad sees me, I'm in labor, and then he's like, I'm coming. So we're like, Okay, cool. So then I walked, so like we're on the second floor, I walked down the stairs, and immediately when I get to like down like on the ground, I vomit like everything that I ate, and I was like, Oh boy, I think I'm in transition.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

But I was like, Okay, and we were the contractions now, like how far are they?

SPEAKER_00 56:52

They were strong. No, they were very like, I think they were like one or two minutes apart, but I we weren't counting at this point because the baby's head was like pretty much like you can see it. So um we just get together, like so. The birth center is 15 minutes away, and then like we I get into the car because he's so low, I can't even sit. So I'm like on my knees, um, you know, just like obviously breathing through the contractions, and then um I start the baby like feeling him like he's gonna come out. And I like kept telling my husband, I was like, he's coming, he's coming. And then my husband's like, Don't push. I'm like, I'm not pushing, the baby's coming on his own. And my dad, imagine you like, you know, like African, like our African like dads, especially when you know, are I don't know, depending on where parents gave birth, like, especially at the hospital, it's like a it's a common word where like all these women give birth, so they've never seen even their own wives give birth. So that's like my dad, and then now he's hearing his daughter, like, you know, obviously it's great, and he was under so much stress. So for me, and my daughter was also stressed because when I kept saying, like, he's coming because he was truly coming, and then my husband's like, Hold it. I'm like, I can't hold it.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

So by some everyone plus your daughter to the birth center, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Because the birth center accommodates the like oh the whole family, yeah. If if you want, but I at that point, my daughter, like she had met my dad when she was like four months, but after that, I mean she knows him on videos and stuff, but I she wasn't like used to him for us to just like leave her, right? So, and I had kind of like talked to her. I mean, she was only two, but like that, you know, the baby's gonna come. I had like talked to her what would happen, so like tried to prepare her, um, because in case actually the baby came before my dad, um my dad was able to come. So, anyways, then we get to the birth center, and then they have two rooms, and they said like one of them is a bit bigger, and the second one is a bit smaller. Like, I think when it's still really beautiful rooms, I don't think you'll notice. I think, but before you have a baby, you're like, Oh, I want this room because it's big, but when you're in labor, none of that really might be anything. So she had told us there's somebody already in labor, so you guys are gonna go to the second room, and then we're standing here, my husband and I arguing, like, it's this way, it's that way, because the entrance, if you're going to the second room, is different. And then Maidula also shows up, she comes, and then this is like set up in a building where there's like a hallway, and then there's other offices, and then there's the birth center on one side. So, anyways, um uh, like we go, and then as soon as I get to the door, like so we're in the hallway walking, and then when we got to the birth center door, I told her, I can't, I can't go, like he's coming, and which is also very different than hospitals, and there's not a second where she questioned me, she just like have them bring you know those pads and the setup stuff. She's like, Yeah, we're having a baby, and so I was on all fours with people from their office watching me as I gave birth to my son, and he came out like really fast. But I remember her saying, Oh my gosh, I think we have a little shoulder dystocia, and then my husband, I didn't feel it, or I didn't even hear it. But I she he said she put her finger and like released his uh shoulder, I guess, from the bone, uh, very quickly, and then he came out and then like they gave it, they gave him to me, and the feeling was completely different than how it was with my daughter because I think with my daughter, I had I felt like I had to work so hard in such a very stressful environment that when she came, it was like a true reward. Like I just could not believe it. With him, I was in utter shock because I was like, what in the world just happened? How did I just give birth like this? You know, because it was just like and then I remember like I remember like I mean, I was holding him, but I kept turning to my midwife and I was like, Adrian, can you believe I literally just did this? And she's like, You did it, like you did it. Um and then yeah, I mean, and but I remember yeah, for like more than an hour, like I was in shock. Like I just couldn't believe that birth could be this good. Because because of my first experience, I was like, this is a lie, like there's no way this just happened, like it's a dream, you know. And then I went, and then um, you know, the placenta was born, like, and then yeah, like it was very easy. And then she told me I didn't tear despite him coming extreme. So from the time my water broke to him being born was one hour, so it was really, really fast. But she like I didn't tear, I didn't, and I had extremely minimal um bleeding, like literally like almost no bleeding at all. Um, and I felt good, but the only thing that happened was as he was coming out, I heard my tailbone back, and I was like, Oh my gosh. Yeah, then I was like in tears because I was like, oh my god, I'm back to that life again, but then now it's worse because we were moving here, we're moving to Rhonda. I don't know if there's a chiropractor, I don't know what kind of physical therapist they are, I don't know what I have access to. I was like, this is like horrible. So for like a week, I mean, I was still in excruciating pain, and I had convinced myself, like, I mean, I was really in tears thinking about how life was gonna be in a new country where I don't know what the services are like with a newborn, and then um I have this like dislocated tailbone again. Luckily, after a week, I don't know by some magic, it just like had popped back itself, and then I was feeling um really great. But I mean, I was like very cautious not to like put any pressure. I was always like sideline and um you know, breastfeeding and all of that. But yeah, I mean it was such um an incredible birth where I was like, oh my gosh, like it can be it can be so good, and I felt so I mean I I felt really taken care of like because they um they give you a bath after like like a quick bath, and then um it was really cute because I even have pictures where my daughter was like pouring water on me and stuff, and um yeah, it was amazing, and he was a big baby, he was four, um, he was four kilos. Um but like no tear again, and it was just yeah, so for me, I was like, oh my god, you see, when you actually let nature really, you know, happen, like it's you know, it's just yeah, it's it's amazing. So that was really um, yeah, I I think it it really it was in a way redemptive, but there was always kind of a part of me that was like, oh I, you know, obviously I had to take the casserole. I could have waited for sure and he would have come because my midwife was like, I'm pretty sure he's gonna come before 42 weeks. Um, but I was like, oh, I just wish there was a way that the labor truly like started on its own. But outside of that, I was like um super happy. Postpartum was like really good, despite us moving again to a whole different country, which was really hard. I'm not gonna lie, it was tough. But I think because I had such a like a very positive birth experience, like it made the postpartum um really easy as well. And I mean, he was such like uh he was so chunky. I think even to sleep like next to him and stuff, because with my daughter, obviously, because she was my first, but also she was smaller. Um she wasn't like that small, but like I mean, she was 3.2 kgs, but that's after she was pumped with all those things. So she was probably maybe three kgs, but him, he was four kilos, he was so chunky, like I mean, yeah, he was so big, like it didn't. I was not scared to sleep next to him. And um, yeah, I mean, he nursed like he lashed really well, he nursed well, like he was um was like amazing, like the postpartum. And I remember we were all like sleeping on like all four of us, like fit in the same bed, and yeah, it was um it was a bliss, obviously, until like we had to pack up our stuff um and move. But I think it was honestly like the birth being like that made all the things possible because I mean I was heavy lifting and stuff, doing all the things you shouldn't be doing postpartum, obviously, because we were moving, but I think um at least I I still felt uh relatively quite good after and um months after, so that was like a really positive experience. And I think, yeah, I mean, I always say that's that burden like it's so special because I knew I had known my midwife for almost two years at that. Well, yeah, I think for more than two years, actually, close to three years, because I had met her when I was like a month postpartum with my firstborn, and then she, you know, she walked me through the whole journey of. Pregnancy and the birth, and then um postpartum, so it was just such a lovely and different experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Oh awesome! It must have felt so good, like just the stock difference.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

Yes, but I knew, like, I mean, for me, I was like, because everybody actually like it was also COVID, and that was the other reason, also that was really good that I was there because all the hospitals didn't allow anyone outside of your husband. And for us, we didn't have any family in Utah. There was no one we could just leave our daughter for like labor. So I think like that was like very important that we were in a space that at least supported, like you, that you know, that understood that you um you need a lot of support people with you, but also for us, like we didn't have anybody we could leave our child with, but it was also beautiful because all the appointments and stuff, like my daughter knew all the midwives. It's not like you know, you see a midwife and then somebody else on call is gonna come at the delivery. So that was so beautiful. So if there was truly an emergency, then she knew them enough that they could be with her, play with her while I was being taken care of. So that was also the other um positive. But yeah, it felt so good. And I think um honestly, I felt so powerful because I felt like with my first birth, just like all my power was just taken from me, and then this was like, oh my gosh, like I can do anything. Like if I've done this, I can do anything. It was such an empowering um birth. So that was like, yeah, it was very different than um the first one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:42

Okay, now you can take us to your third.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

Yes, so my third, she was actually a surprise baby. I was like, I have a girl, I have a boy, I'm not um good. I'm good for a while. Like I wanted to take up a break, but we had also right settled in just like a new place. We were trying to figure out life just with two kids and stuff. So right now when you get pregnant with your third. Um he was about a year and a half, so yeah, it was it was much sooner than the other one. A year and a half or an year and eight months, or so I can't recall. So they're exactly um two, two, he's two and a half years older than her, my second born. So, anyways, um I'm like, but then my daughter would tell, like, we had a caretaker like here, and she would tell her, you know, my mom's gonna get pregnant, she's gonna have a baby girl, and like she would tell me that. And then um, yeah, she comes to me and she's like, Oh, you know, like me done, she told me, like, you're gonna have a baby girl, and I was like, Stop! Like, there's um like there's no way I'm having a baby right now.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

My oldest daughter, before I got pregnant with my third, she we have a whiteboard, so she'd like draw me pregnant with twins, and I'm like, girl, can you can you get that get it get that off the whiteboard?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

I know, isn't it crazy? Like how they know, and then I'll she would always and she would always like when we would, you know, um, my mom visits us quite often because she works in Congo and she'd always be with my mom, and she's always praying, and we would be like, What are you praying about? And then she's like, I'm praying for God to give me a baby sister. So we're like, Okay, even if we go to church, she's like, I'm praying for God to give me a baby sister. So I'm like, Okay, keep praying, keep praying. Uh, but obviously for me, I was like, there's no way, like, I'm not ready, I'm not even thinking about it. So what happened was I think um, because I do like I track my cycles, and you know, like I do the temperature and all of that. And when I had gone to Ethiopia, I had done um the vaginal steaming. I think you guys have it in Nairobi. I think they're Ethiopians that do it there too. Yeah. Um, the reason I did it was my cycles were a bit shorter, and my doula, she's also my my doula that helped me deliver my uh firstborn, so the the one that was the backup, she she does like vaginal steaming and stuff. She's trained, so she was telling me, you know, maybe like do the steaming and see if it actually like uh maybe your Lurial phase or something will be longer or something like that. So I was like, sure, I'll do it. So when I went to Ethiopia, I do it, I did it. Um, it was like it felt incredible. And I was like, oh my gosh, and I I didn't have enough days to actually repeat it, but I go, and then um like my cycle is like 26 days, and then I don't get a period, like it's very accurate, and I was like, what's going on? And I actually thought I was pregnant at that point, but I did all these pregnancy tests, and I even did like those really expensive ones, and it's negative, but then it came on the 28th day, and I was like, Oh, now like it has actually extended like the me extended my cycle, and then but then I think I like it kind of put me off of my like when my ovulation wasn't tracking, so then like the next month came around, and then it didn't come and I wasn't bothered because I was like, now it's 28 days, but then it was 29 days, and I was like, What is going on? and then it was 30 days, and I was like, Okay, this is not right, and then I had like some pregnancy tests left over from like that that previous month when I actually thought I was pregnant, and then I tested, and it's like the quickest positive, and oh my gosh, I was like, I think I wasn't even this shocked when I was pregnant with my first. I was like, I was shocked because I was truly just like mentally, I was like not prepared um to have a third child. I was like, oh my god, like I I cannot believe this. And at this point, my husband had actually lost his grandmother and was to travel for the funeral. And I remember like he he works from home, so like I walk into his office like with a pregnancy test, and he's like, What? I was like, I'm pregnant, and he's like, You're joking. I was like, No, I'm not joking. But I remember he said something, and I think culturally for Africans, we do believe this because it's something that we say in Ethiopia too he's like, Are you trying to give me my grandma back?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:24

I remember to say it like the number of people who get pregnant when someone in the Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

Actually, yeah, you see, even me when my one of my uncles, when my grandfather died, his wife was pregnant, and everyone was like, Oh my gosh, like this is you know, the the circle of life, like so um he said that, and I was like, Oh my gosh, yeah, but I mean in my head at that point, I was like, Oh, like I'm yeah, I'm just not ready. And I kind of decided this time that I wanted to keep it to myself. I did tell my sister, whom I'm super close to, but I told her, I'm not gonna tell my parents, I'm not gonna tell anyone. I just want to be able to process it um all on my own. And I did tell my best friend who's my daughter's godmother. And um, so, anyways, I like I keep it to myself. I'm going through the pregnancy, and then I was like super sick. I remember when my husband actually went for the funeral, he went for a week to Kenya, and um, yeah, I mean, I was struggling because I was like really sick, like in the thick of it. Then he comes back.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:28

Um, and then I'm wait, so before we go on, so do you think you conceived after you did the steam or you had conceived before?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:39

No, no, no, I conceived after the steam. Okay, so the steam actually made my cycle like 28 days, which then threw me off.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:46

And okay, so you mistimed the ovulation, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:50

So then um I, you know, yeah, that I got pregnant after, and then like obviously, like we were still processing, and they were like, okay, what are we gonna do? So we were exploring. I found a midwife here, she's um she was from Belgium and she had been working here, and she has like an office close to with an OB here. Um, it's in a private practice, so she does her things, she does natural birth. But if there's an emergency, obviously he intervenes. Um, but he's very supportive of her and he respects her work and all of that. So she was working with him. So I kind of like that. And then again, the visits were longer, similar. Um, they were more personable. She was a lot more medical than my other midwife, I would say. Um, but I mean, she was very much for informed consent, like, you know, obviously, if you didn't want anything, but she also understood the context, which was also a different context for me. So she would, you know, she explained everything and I was going through the pregnancy. So at 11 weeks, I passed this like humongous blood clot, and I start bleeding. So obviously for me, I was like, oh my gosh, like, you know, I'm like having a miscarriage because like it was just a huge um blood clot. I've I mean, I it's not an implantation bleeding, and it was like a significant amount of blood that came out. So obviously I was super freaked out. We it was at night actually, then we go to the hospital, a clinic close by, and it was actually almost 10 p.m. when we arrived, and they close at 10. But I had begged them. I was like, I need to see an OB because I can't, like, um, yeah, and I was like super, you know, distraught. As much as it was like unexpected, it was like I was like, oh my gosh, like super sad. I go, he, yeah, and then he sees the ultrasound and he's like, the baby is fine. And I didn't believe him. I was like, there's no way, like, I've you know, like I've gotten like I that much blood came out of me, and then the baby's fine. And then I talked to my midwife, then she was like, uh, let's put you on progesterone, and then I want you to do um like complete bed rest. And at that point, I was still nursing my son, um, because I was like, at least yeah, he has to nurse until two, but he was not ready at all to like um stop breastfeeding because I just, you know, suddenly, because he was still not even two. So I was like, okay, like I was nursing him. Um, and then she was, and I was like, I kind of got, you know, there was so much fear in me now. My god, should I stop breastfeeding him? Like, what should I do? Um, but I knew I wanted to stop kind of at night because um obviously the more he smelled me, the more he wanted to um to nurse. So I was like, okay, I started sleeping in a different room, um, trying to, you know, slowly you wanted to stop breastfeeding because of the blood clots. Yeah, I mean, it didn't make sense, but it shows like you're fine. But I think for me was like, okay, maybe my body's like handling too much, like maybe I'm doing too much to slow down, you know. I mean, my goal was to get him to two, but I was like, okay, like maybe I need to stop. Um, but it was kind of sad. Like, I think for him, I don't know, maybe you have a different uh similar experience, like the breastfeeding with him versus the breastfeeding with my girls is very different for him. He was not like a frequent breastfeeder, and that boys actually take in a lot more milk at once, and sometimes they're able to stay longer. So he wasn't like with my daughter, she she breastfed like so so so frequently with him because also I think he's a secondborn because my you know, my daughter's running around, he's always wanting to be like doing things, yeah. Only would come to nurse like when he truly wanted it. It's not like he was glued to me the same way my firstborn was. And I remember one time I just to test him, like this was like very much early on in the pregnancy. I think where I hadn't told someone, I kind of told him, Oh, like I have, you know, I have like an oui, like or whatever. And he was sad and he was ready to stop because he felt actually sad for me. And I was like, I'm not doing that. Because, you know, like I didn't think it would be that like he would actually like truly fully, you know, stop. He was very ready, like he didn't want it. So I was like, okay, I'm doing this. But then at this point, I was like, obviously, I was having this internal conflict. I'm on progesterone, I'm on bed rest, which was excruciating. And I do really empathize, honestly, for women who do have to do it for like a very extended amount of time because I'm such an active person. I like to move, I cook, I do a lot of things, and I just felt like I was in prison. But I mean, obviously, I I understood like it was for a greater good. So then she said in two weeks I go see the OB. He does an ultrasound, and then they check like if everything is okay. And I remember, I mean, I was praying the whole time. I mean, I was very, but I was like, I was afraid, I was even scared to go to the bathroom. I was scared, it was just I was like, and there was so much fear in me. But, anyways, those two weeks pass. Um, I didn't stop breastfeeding him because my um my midwife was like, I don't think you should stop him. Like, if you want to continue, she just like nourish herself. I don't think that has anything to do with this, so like just um do so. During at night, I wanted to sleep, so I didn't breastfeed him. But during the day, I would just let him nurse, and he'd nurse like I don't know, twice or three times or whatever. But then that happened, and I went and the OB, he saw it, and he told me um it's a blood clot in the placenta. Um, and he said, everything looks fine, the baby looks great, um, all is well. Then I was off progesterone and all of that, and then continued the pregnancy. So at 12 weeks, um I told my family. I mean, I told like a couple of more people um just like that are more closer to me. And um, but then I still didn't like share, I never shared on social media or anything. Like even here, like people knew me. I think they could see maybe like my my, you know, I don't know, my stomach growing, my belly growing, but they didn't, I mean, some people are like, oh, like, oh, you know, they would make a comment, but some people did I didn't really make an announcement, I was just going through it. Um, and then what happened was my midwife said that she got a job in Belgium, and I was doing April, and she said she could no longer um be present at my birth, and then she told me the options of what was available here, and it didn't sound good.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:21

Well, what was your plan while she was? So yeah, yeah, I was facilities.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

No, no, yeah, at their facility, so because home births are illegal here, so it was to birth at it's uh it's at a clinic, but I mean, and it's not like particularly compared to where I birthed my second. I mean, it's night and day, like they're really old, dingy rooms. But she's like, hey, you know, we'll put essential oils and um, you know, just put music, and she's like, You're not gonna care, like you're gonna be in labor, you know you're not gonna care even what the room looks like. So I was like, sure, like as long as you're there, um, all is good. Then I was like, and then everybody else was like, Oh, maybe you should got you should try to go back to the US, um, and you know, and all of that. So that I was like, okay, like maybe then I can try and see, because I do really want a bird outside of the hospital. Um, and then here she was telling me, like, if I give birth accidentally at home and stuff, it's just very complicated, like it just doesn't make sense. Um, then the whole point was she was not gonna be there, and I did not like the feeling because we had built a relationship, we had a plan and we had talked about all my birds and all my desires, and she was gonna respect them, and I knew the other people would not. So, anyways, um we applied for a visa and stuff, and I was like, okay, if it works, it works, if it doesn't work, that's I think when I contacted you because I was like, I want to consider Kenya because there's no way I'm gonna give in the conditions she told me, um, because I just knew like they wouldn't respect it. And one of the major things was also I know my gestation is like 41 weeks plus, and here I would already be induced at 41 weeks. So it's like I don't want to do that. So then, anyways, things worked out, and then um we go to the US. We did have to go significantly um sooner than we anticipated because again, like um, I guess like if you're pregnant because they don't want you to give birth, then try to use that to stay. Like, there's regulations, so if they do see your belly, they'll send you back. I didn't know all of this stuff at that point, so that was like a whole stress in and of itself, but anyways, everything worked out, and then we went. So then we visited quite a couple of um birth centers, so now we are back um at the you know, in the same state that I had my uh my firstborn. And actually, like, so let me roll back a little bit. So then my daughter kept saying the entire time after I told her that I'm pregnant, she's like, I'm having a baby sister, I'm having a baby sister, and I was like, sure, but you could also be a baby brother, because I was like, you know, that's the reality. And then she's like, No, I'm having a baby sister. And so I was like, and I was like, I didn't want to find out because we had a boy, a girl, I was like, let's just kind of um do a surprise. But then I was actually quite concerned because she was so adamant that it's a baby um girl that I was like, okay, if it's a boy, I think she needs time to like actually warm up to the idea. So I was like, okay, let's find out. And then we go the first time we went, like, and like you know how some of these places work, like here the lines are insane. So, like, you'd go for an appointment, like for a 7 a.m. appointment, and sometimes you're being seen at like 11 a.m. or 12 p.m. Like, and this particular guy is super popular because he's really, really good and meticulous. Um, and anyways, like we go, we wait for like two hours, and then the ultrasound machine was broken. We're like, okay, that's yeah. And then a couple of, I think maybe like a week or so passed, and then they're like, We have it fixed, and what we made an appointment, and then we go, and then it was like the anatomy scan. He does the anatomy scan, everything, and then he's like, Everything looks perfect, you're good to go. And then we're like, Oh, what about the gender? And he's like, I didn't tell you guys, and I was like, No, oh, I thought I told you guys last time when I did the ultrasound. I was like, No, you did not, and then he said, I think it's a girl, but let me check. And then he was like, It's a girl. So I mean, we were so happy for my daughter, and we came home and we're like, It's a girl, you're having a baby sister, and she's like, Yeah, I told you guys, like, what? Why are you why do you think this is well? I should be shocked. Like, I literally told you guys, so I thought about that. You don't trust your intuition, I trust my I know exactly, so she was like super um, but the pregnancy was like similar to hers in a way, but I think I was very tired because I had you know two little kids. Um, and then obviously, because of the first thing, I was I think up to at least 20 something weeks, I felt like I was a little bit in a lot of fear, like something bad is gonna happen. Um, but outside of that, I mean, it was pretty good. I, you know, I ate well, I was fine, and um, and then we went and then we visited a couple of bird centers. Um, but then like there were a couple that we liked. Um, and some of them like they don't work with insurance, and then some of them actually we also wanted to work with the so the original doula that I hired with my first birth, um, not the backup, but she became a midwife, but she only did home births, and I kind of considered it for a while, but then I think because we were staying in like you know, with family members, I just felt like I would always be, I would always feel like a guest, and I just didn't feel like I would be able to relax to have a home birth. I mean, they were very willing and um you know kind to accommodate that, and they're like, if you want, you know, we can leave the house, we can do this, but I just didn't feel um comfortable, and I think it was really the right decision at the end, but anyway, so we you know that was um that was not an option. We left that and then we um we started um exploring other other options, and there was one place that we had visited. The only difference was unlike my other midwife, um, when I delivered my son, they're a group of midwives. You still get to know all of them, but I think it works best if you um if you were like if you started your care with them from the beginning, because I think there's eight of them or something, so the ideally you've had like several appointments with each of them by the time you give birth because it is important to them that you feel comfortable. But for us, we were like a late transfer because by the time I got seen, I think I was like 30 weeks or so. Um so was later, so it was kind of difficult. But they did like I think they they tried their best to kind of um make us see the you know that all the have appointments with all the midwives that would likely be um that were like on call for April and stuff, and it was good. There was one midwife, she was a younger midwife that we met, like the first day she was the one who gave us a tour and stuff. We really um liked her, but that was kind of I think the only time, and then maybe we had one more appointment with her, but that was kind of the only time we met her. There were a couple of others that you know we also liked, and we were wishing like um I would go and labor with them. So with her, I mean, I knew like I, you know, I was gonna give birth after 41 weeks, but somehow I had convinced myself this time maybe she'll come earlier. I needed her to come earlier too because we wanted to have the baby have a little bit of recovery and then come back home. So I was. Like, you know, really hoping that should come by 40 weeks. So she was she was kind of heavier. I felt like she was heavier than her sister, but like kind of not as heavy as her brother. I kind of had that feeling. Um, but I was getting like um really tired pretty quickly because obviously here I there was, you know, I had some help there. I was obviously doing everything myself. I was cooking. My husband was also working at night and then sleeping a little bit through um during the day. So it was also rough for him. Um but I mean, it was like we were like, okay, at least I'm gonna get the birth that I want. And one of the other major deciding factors was here, if you hemorrhage, they said it's really difficult to get a blood transfusion. I've never needed one in the past, but I was like, that's kind of a major thing. Yeah, you need it. So they do pitocin, like they always do a routine pitocin, after which I was ready to have that, but it was kind of like just yeah, that and then when all the things added up, but particularly with my midwife not being there, I was like, it's not gonna be an option. So we we put this place because they take insurance, but they were also really nice. They um, you know, they accommodated us, they treated us really well, they understood, like we told them that we were gonna travel and stuff. So they were really um encouraging, the visits were really nice. Um, and the midwives, I mean, they're knowledgeable and stuff, so it was a very healthy pregnancy. They also had a chiropractor like upstairs in their practice that came and adjusted pregnant women there, so it was really nice. We didn't have to drive to like different places, so it worked out really well. So, anyways, 40 um 37 weeks comes, and I don't know what got into me because I think we really wanted to like have the baby and travel home so quickly. I was like, I was like, Oh, I want a cervical check, and they were like, No, we I we really don't encourage you to do like a cervical check at this point, but then I was like so adamant, so they're like, sure, we'll do it. They did it and they said I was like two centimeters. Um, I think one, no, she said maybe like a centimeter, not even a centimeter, something like that. But I was like, okay, um, which I knew like that didn't mean anything really, but I was like, okay, cool. Um, we go. And then and then at 36 weeks, I tested positive for GBS. I don't know how that is handled in Kenya, but here they've now, I think, started testing because they never used to test in the past. Um, in the US, it's always that they routinely test, and then if you're positive, you have to take IV antibiotics during labor. So they did say obviously if your labor is less than four hours, like if it was like gonna be fast, like my son, it doesn't make a difference because usually the bacteria is transferred. I think if you have kind of a longer labor, and then you need the four hours for the dose to work or something like that. So if you have a short bird, it's not necessary. But then if it's longer and if your water had been broken for a while, that's it like you're gonna have to take the antibiotics. So that was a new thing for me because I had never tested positive for this. Um, so I was kind of like, uh, you know, I would, I mean, I was not like happy, but I was like, okay, we'll go with it. And then I didn't have a single pro-dormal labor, like nothing. I was just like, you know, going about my pregnant life, and then 40 weeks comes, um, nothing happens, and then um, you know, I'm trying to do things, like everything, like nothing really happens, and then I get um a membrane sweep at 41 weeks because I was like, I mean, I really want to speed this up, and I remember that day she told me um she said the baby's head is still high, but she said, um I'm four to five centimeters dilated, which was a shock to me because I was like, I've never had any contraction, I never had anything, the baby's still up high, so I was like, I don't know how that's happening, but they were like, I mean, it could be like a very fast birth, like um your son, so like we will prepare for that. And because um this birth center was 45 minutes from um where like we were staying with our family members, so like they were like, if you have a contraction, like you absolutely need to, you know, come to the birth center. So I get this membrane sweep, and um like and then they say, Well, if nothing happens, we'll do that castor oil. You can come, like you'll do the castor oil, and then we'll see what happens. Because I was so tired and I was like, I was ready to go home because we had been there for four months almost at this point, and I was like, I want to go home, like I want to have my baby and just go home. And um I was like in my heart, I was like, I knew I didn't want to do castor oil again, but I was like, okay, like if that's what it takes, I guess this is kind of how my birth stories are. I will go. So we go home, and then my husband feels sick, like he like his back. I don't know, like I think something happened to his back, like he literally couldn't get up, like he's sick. And then um, yeah, the next morning he woke up super sick, and so I was like, Well, this is not happening, and he's like, We can still do that. I was like, There's no way this is happening if you're sick, so to like you know, let's move on with Daddy. So I was doing a lot of postpartum meal prep, so I continued to do that. I was cooking, and then he was sick, so I was handling the kids and stuff, and I was pretty um, I was pretty tired, but I remember I started having some cramping, like kind of like a period cramp, and I was like, I didn't think much of it, and I was like making dinner with my sister-in-law, and I was like, because she can kind of see like my face, I was like, oh like, and she's like, What's wrong with you? And I was like, I'm having cramps, and she's like, You're in labor. I was like, nah, like I know like my labors don't start like this, I'm definitely not in labor, and then I'm like walking um because I had a phone call from a friend and she was like encouraging me, she's like, Don't worry, like it's gonna happen. I know it's hard, and all of that and stuff. And I was like, I don't think so. Like, and I'm like this whole time I'm having these cramps, and then I start having um contractions, and I start having contractions, and then I was like, oh, maybe like this is labor. So I like called them, but I was kind of like nervous because I was in disbelief that actually my body would go into labor, and then I like would um I was like kind of shaking, and then um, so we're talking to them, and then I don't know, one of them I remember like one midwife, like she was like, Oh, don't come now, like wait a little bit, da-da-da. And I told her, Hey, like, I really did have a very fast labor with my um with my second, and they told me I am like five centimeters dilated, so I think I I want I should come. So, like, as we were doing like this, and what was funny is like because we were so convinced like this baby's not coming, there was a car that they had given us to use while we were there. Um, my brother-in-law took that car with our birth bag packed in it to a church meeting because we were like, the baby's not coming, I'm not doing like whatever the castoral induction or anything, so we're you know, the baby's not coming today. So then while we're having this conversation trying to figure out what to do, they were like, Okay, sure, my sister-in-law's like take this, you know, their other car, and then um my water breaks. My water breaks, and then I was like, Okay, like I put on a diaper and I am like, you know, I'm having contractions, but I truly am not feeling any pain. Like they're contracting, but there's no pain. And I was on the phone with Maidula, like laughing. I was like, How is this possible? Like, I don't even feel any pain, I don't feel anything. So we drive and then we make it to the birth center, and I get in the water um because I wanted to do a water bird this time, and then um the person that I actually really wanted was on call, so was like really amazing. I was like, okay, this is so cool. Um, then they um they checked me and they said I'm eight centimeters. Um, and then I'm like, you know, super happy, laughing, um, having contractions, even having some urge um to push. But then because we had forgotten the birthing bag, my sister-in-law comes with my son to the birth center to adopt that. And then I see my son, and then we lock eyes, and I just feel so sad because in a way I was like, you know, that whole time I wasn't thinking this is the last time he's gonna be like little less. Yeah, and then he also was like kind of stressed because he could see me. I mean, I wasn't like in pain or anything, but I was breathing through contractions, and he was like, and then immediately after that my labor stopped. Oh no, and yeah, and they were like, Oh, like it's okay, it's because I've you know, you you've seen him and you kind of you know went into mom mode, like you're worried about him, so your body's like saying no, it's okay. Like, then they drop the thing, they go, um, and then you know, we're trying to do this. I'm walking upstairs, I'm doing things, like I'm doing all the things. Um, they even did the breast pump, like it would stimulate, like it would start contractions for a little bit and then stop. And this was like now past midnight. So we had gotten to the birth center around 5 p.m. It's midnight. Um, and I was getting pretty tired and like no contractions, my water stopped leaking. I was literally back to being pregnant. So I was like, I'm super tired. Um, I want to take a nap. So I was like, okay, now that it's been like, I guess, however many hours, put the antibiotics, the IV antibiotics, and then I'm gonna take a nap. So they they give me the antibiotics and then I take a nap. And then around 1 a.m. Um or so, like then I wake up and then they were like, um, okay, should we try something again? Um, we try, they were like, let's try castor oil. And I remember like my husband had to drive and go get the castor oil, and it was actually like the pharmacy was about to close and stuff, but anyways, he gets the castor oil. I drink it and I I just I don't know, like I was like, okay, and then um I drink it, I get diarrhea, no labor. And I was like, oh my gosh, like this is strange because I'm eight centimeters, like I'm I mean, I'm like, I I don't know how this castor oil cannot work because it has worked in the past when I was not even this dilated, this ready, but I mean they could tell the baby was still high. So obviously they were monitoring her, they were monitoring me. I mean, I was fine, and then nothing happened. I was really discouraged at that point. So they were like, it's okay, like take rest. We did the breast bomb here, um, here and there and stuff. But they're like, let's wait because the chiropractor can come and adjust you in the morning, and then we'll they have an ultrasound text, she'll also come. We'll see, like through, you know, in the ultrasound if the baby's in the right position, all of that, all of that. The morning comes. I, you know, I they do the ultrasound, they see everything, the baby's fine, she's looking good, but obviously she's not bothered. She's ambitious to be coming. The chiropractor adjusts me. She says, you know, you're doing really good. Um, we'll see. But I was like, obviously, like as the day went on, I was super, I was really discouraged because I was like, man, like it started, but then why can't it work? Why can't it continue? So um when the morning rolled over, like my midwives who are on called, they finished their 24-hour um shift and then they were leaving. But one of them came to me and she said, Hyuate, don't worry, you're gonna have a baby here today. Like, because I mean at that point I was also thinking, okay, I'm my water harm's been broken when it's when it hits. Usually it's 48 hours, actually, if you don't have an infection or anything, but I was like, I'm getting to that 24 hour mark and I'm gonna transfer to a hospital. Like, it was just not something I was prepared for. So she says that to me. And throughout the day, again, we're doing the breast pump, we're doing walks, we're doing the peanut bowl, like just trying to let the baby kind of engage in the pelvis. And nothing was working. And then I think around again 1 p.m., they were like, You should take castor oil. And I remember I was just like, I don't want to take it because I'm so done. But I was like, sure, they're like sometimes you know works like the second time. So I take it. It was so disgusting. I threw up, so I didn't think even any of it stayed. And I was like, again, super discouraged because I told them last time I didn't even throw up and it didn't work, so no way it's gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:39

Yeah, then contractions now are they painful?

SPEAKER_00 1:40:43

Zero, so there is no contractions, like so, but from the time it stopped to now like zero, like I'm back to being fully pregnant. Oh no, yeah. So I am like super, super um discouraged, and I mean, I'm still trying to listen to like the um like some songs, like some, you know, some whatever the hypno birding they have, like the affirmation tracks. I'm trying to listen to that, but um, nothing is really working. Then I went, I had lunch, um, then I came back, I rested for a bit again. I mean, we did like a couple of like they did like a rebozo sifting. I mean, my doula. So actually, one of one thing that I forgot to mention was the doula, the backup doula that helped me deliver my daughter, was the same doula that helped me also deliver my thirdborn because she would joke. Um, whenever we would talk, like after I moved here, she's like, Oh my god, third baby, her name is Rhonda. So she's like, third baby was Rhonda in Rwanda. Like she would always joke that it didn't quite happen that way, but she was there. So I mean, she had a lot of skills, so she would do this and stuff, and nothing happened. So now we were getting super close to the 24-hour mark, and I am truly very discouraged. Um, but I was kind of like, Yeah, I was just going through it, like I would drink water, um, you know, I would do something like and but nothing happened. And then they were like, Why don't you try acupuncture? And then my husband was like, Let's try it. And I was like, I don't think it's gonna work, like it's pointless because it's an extra cost. And I was like, We're just wasting money, like I don't want to do it. And he's like, Don't worry, let's just do it. Like, who knows how you know it's gonna be. So they called this acupuncturist to come, and then my doula was like, You guys should go take a walk. And it was April, but in Minnesota, it's still quite cold. So, like, I mean I a jacket and all of that, and then we went for a walk just around the block. We walked, and then um I remember as we were kind of coming back to the like the bird center, I just like broke down, being like, What is wrong? Like, why am I not having this baby? Like, why is she not coming? Like, I've done everything, you know, like all of this, and I don't know what's wrong with me. Like, why can't I just have, you know, like a normal labor that just progresses? Um, and I just like bald my eyes out, and then my husband was like, keep crying, keep crying. He's like a phase that you know, just like will feel relief after crying. It's like it's you. So, anyways, I cry, I'm like, I'm done. I mean, I feel a little bit like easier, like yeah, lighter. And then I go in, and then as soon as I step in the bird center, I started feeling those same cramps that I felt like when the labor started. And I was like, oh my gosh, like I guess okay, maybe something is happening. And then I go, and then the acupuncturist was there, so she was like, Oh, like I lay down, she starts putting um the needle, but I just had a feeling that she was really gonna come and she was gonna come really fast. So I was like, So she starts placing these needles, I'm like laying down, and then I was like, okay, wait, but what happens? Like, if I actually because I had taken that castor oil still, even though like I threw out most of it, I still had taken it. I was like, Why do I need to put the bathroom? Or what if I actually start labor? Like, what happens? And she's like, Oh, you can still like breathe through. I was like, There is no way I'm breathing through with all these needles. I was like, what she's like, okay, you can tell me and I'll remove it. So she's not even done. So she had probably placed some needles on my on my feet, but she had not even gotten maybe one on my head, I think. And then she had not even done the rest of my body, and I feel a contraction, and it was a very strong contraction. So I was like, I was like, I told her she's coming, and I know she's coming fast, so I was like, I need you to take the needle. So then I go to the bathroom, I use the bathroom, and like I mean, I knew she was coming, and the contractions were just like back to back and back to back. But what made it quite difficult because she was still up high, she had not rotated. It was so painful because I could hear, like, I could feel her rotating through like pushing on my pelvic as she was calming down, and whew, that was like that was that was really hard. I I would say it was really hard. And I remember so, but I got in the water, and I mean the water was giving me like a lot of relief, but I like I think because the I I'm like pretty short and petite, so like the water would float me because they had filled the bathtub because and then they would like I had the same problem. I'm like, this water is taking me away with the eye, and then they would like push me back, and then I was like, but anyways, it was funny because I mean it was so um intense. I mean, it was like the most intense feeling I've ever felt, and um, yeah, she was rotating and coming, and so in 45 minutes, you know, um, she comes. But I remember because I was so like, yeah, I just could not handle the intensity. I remember saying, like, I am never gonna have a baby again. Like, I am done with this, like this is too much. And then they're like, No, and I felt so bad because one of the midwife was like, she was trying to tell me to do something, and I was like, Have you actually ever had a baby? And I felt so bad later on because she's like, You're right, I have not, I've not had a baby. And I didn't even remember because it was like my husband who told me, you know, that's what you told her, and um, but anyway, like then she she comes. I think I don't like she comes and I was like, because I could feel her, her head was there, but I think like she was also again, maybe I mean having a little bit of maybe I don't know, my pelvic bone is a bit tight, I'm not sure, but she even her, I don't remember what she did, but she just kind of um did something to her, and then like her whole after her head came out, like her whole body then um came out soon after, and then my husband actually caught her in the water, and then they gave her to me, and they said her cord was pretty short. I don't know, my kids have um pretty short cords for some reason. Then you know, she was placed on my chest and yeah, it was such a different experience. I mean, she she made me work really hard, but I think it was also um unlike I don't know, unlike my other two. I I felt like because maybe I don't know, because I was not prepared or something, you know, with them I would imagine what they would look like, and then all of these things with her was like I just didn't know her. I feel like I think I was maybe also very scared throughout the pregnancy. I didn't really try to connect too much with her, so it was it just felt for it. But then ooh, the afterbirth pains were insane. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:42

How was your tailbone with this birth?

SPEAKER_00 1:47:45

It also popped off again, but then within two days it was back to normal. But it did like every time they come out, they're like they they push it out, and then yeah, so I I know now I know like every if I have more children, that's gonna be the case. But yeah, it's like it was yeah, it was I mean, it was intense, but I think for me the um the afterbirth contractions were just so severe, I was in a lot of pain, and they could see that I had lost more blood in the in the water. They took me out. I was given, I think, two shots of pitocin, didn't work. I was given a third medication, and they were like, okay, if this is not stopping, we're gonna have to transfer to a hospital to do a blood transfusion. For me, what's weird is I know a lot of people like they get lightheaded and stuff as they're losing this blood. I was unfazed. It was literally them telling me, like, you're losing um a lot of blood. But I think eventually we figured out, like, I mean, uh, the placenta was born shortly after, and then just like that, doctor said there was a huge blood clot on the placenta, and so then um, you know, I like that, which kind of explains also kind of the um bleeding and all of that. But then I mean, so they kept me for about six hours, I would say, because I gave birth pretty much exactly 24 hours after I arrived at the thing. But I always joke because I'm like, how do I tell people? Do I say I had a 24-hour labor or like a two-hour labor? Because the time that I really labored was short, because my labor had completely like stopped, not even stalled. Even the midwives, they're like, We've never seen anything like this where your water actually, like, because my water bag sealed itself and stopped, you know, doing that. So, like the leaking, so was just like crazy. But I would say because my labor started on its own, it was also so redemptive. Cause you know, there was a part of me that was always convinced, yeah, like I can have natural birth, but it always felt like I had to do something to to get it started. So was like, okay, my body can actually um do this. So was very redemptive, and I felt, you know, so supported and like by the midwives and And it was also really amazing that my husband got to catch her. And she was like, and even I think you know, our instincts are amazing because I was super right. She was like 3.8 kgs, obviously smaller than her brother, but definitely bigger than her sister. Um, but yeah, it was like, you know, it was it was amazing. Recovery was a bit rough this time, I would say. I mean, I was not in my own space. Uh, but then I also had quite a lot of blood clots after, I think, from the placenta, which were quite scary because I've never really experienced that. Um, and yeah, the afterbirth pains, I mean, whew, they were they were no job. Because I mean, I had to be, I had to take, I think, quite a few um painkillers because I was still in a lot of pain um days after. But I mean, breastfeeding was easy, like all of that. I had no tear again this time, um, even though like again, she came out quite fast. Like it was, I think. I mean, obviously the water helped, but also um, yeah, for me, like, yeah, the only tear I've had is when I had, you know, the induction and it wasn't unnatural, but still, even that was minimal. But still, like with both of them, I had no tear, which I think also really helped with recovering because that would have made the recovery even more complicated. So it was so redemptive, and I was so, you know, I was so grateful. And I think in a way, like, not that I mean, not that I would give birth for the sake of having a, you know, like a positive birth experience, but I think um there was there would always be, I feel like, a part of me that would be like, oh, maybe, you know, maybe if I had one more, like it would be different or something. So now I have that. So I know if I, you know, if I have a child, another child in the future, it's like because I want to have another child. Um, because that's where that I'm always wondering, like, how's the birth gonna be? It's like um, yeah, there was so much, yeah, there was so much redemption, so it was um really good. But for me, I like it's a very empowering um experience, as much as like, oh, it was really hard, it was hard work, and you know, people didn't believe me. They were like, I don't know how you do this, like I don't know how you would actually choose to labor and then not get any pain meds because all like family members and stuff were saying that. Um, and I think a lot of people make the comment, I'm sure you've heard that, oh, it's because you're strong. And I'm like, I don't think I'm I mean, maybe I am, but I don't think that's the reason that it's it's really about the mindset. It's like yeah, yeah, it's you know, it's something you can overcome. And for me, once you overcome it, you always feel like you know that you can overcome anything. So the adrenaline you get after like doing that is truly like right, like it's an extreme sport, like you're like, yeah, I'm I can do anything. So I know, yeah. So it's a beautiful experience, and for me, especially after my first, even with its difficulty, I did let birth transform me uh and break me open and you know, address all like the fears that I had and the traumas, like really confront them. So then it allowed me, I think, to have a better birth experience and a much better um mindset. Uh, because I remember like met this bird was not physically challenging. I mean, it was like obviously her rotating through like my pelvic pone was definitely like it was hard, but I think it was more mentally demanding than like um physically. I feel like, but that's kind of I think there's so much mind work that you have to do. Uh I think to let birth like transform you. So those are my stories.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:47

They're so beautiful. I mean, just like the they're so different. They are so unique. I don't think I've yeah, I've never heard of a labor that just starts and then stops, and then you're driving like two hours.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:59

Yeah, it's no, it is exactly it's so unique, and it's like it's crazy because yeah, even the midwives are like, we've never seen because we've seen like it's tall where you have like sporadic contractions, but they're like never seen anyone who like completely did not have any contractions for almost because yeah, the only contractions that I would have would be from the birth pump, like sorry, the breast pump. I would pump and then I would get a contraction as soon as I stopped pumping, I would not have a contraction. So um, but I mean she was unfazed throughout all of it, like and um yeah, so she was very healthy, very good. So that's been um really good. Now she's like such a big girl. I'm like in disbelief because it feels like yesterday that I had her, and now she's talking, she's such a little boss. Um, and it just yeah, truly has a beautiful bond with her sister, and she always tell her, you know, I prayed for you, like, and I just find that so yeah, so sweet because she's like, I, you know, I prayed for you. And sometimes my daughter would come and she's like, Mommy, you know, she's more than I prayed for. Um, because she's just so I know it's so sweet. And actually, so her name actually means Minna, which means like deep thought or imagination. Um, so I I had that name picked out after I found out it was a girl, and because my daughter like kind of called it herself, because my you know, my daughter's name, my firstborn's name is Mizan. So I was like, okay, I want an M name, that's it's very meaningful, but that also that matches, but also the meaning is like she was taught in her sister's imagination before I even um thought of her, so that's kind of the meaning behind it. So it's uh I don't know. A part of me is like maybe she's child, yeah. And I but sometimes I do get sad. I mean it it's it's beautiful. I feel like I've had a redemptive birth and I just love the like you know, the relationship they have, all three of them, and stuff, and that my boy is like my only boy and special because it's he is truly a special boy. Um, but I don't know. Sometimes I also am like I've always wanted four kids, so I do entertain the idea of um another one soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:15

Yeah, it's okay. One day when the fog of like toddlerhood and nini is gone, yeah, that goes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:22

I think I will I will. I mean, maybe I'll consider it. But obviously, I always say, like, but if if it happens and then you know God gives me another baby, I'm I'm open, but I'm not like actively being like, let me have a baby. I'm not at that stage of life at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:37

Oh but yeah, uh so maybe before we wrap up, um what would you say someone who's maybe navigating healing from a traumatic birth or yeah, it's just navigating a hospital system and isn't sure like yeah, how they should stand up for themselves, what to look out for. Yeah, kind of like red flags maybe you're seeing in hindsight.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:01

I think for me, um if you're if you have a traumatic birth, I think find somebody who'll listen to you truly, or if you can't find someone who'll listen to you, I think the more you talk about it, the more um you can heal from it. But like write it down and put it out there. Um, you know, something. Because for me, actually, right after a couple of months after I had my maybe it's actually a year after I had my daughter, there used to be a podcast called Bird Stories in Color. I recorded with them and I remember when I, even though it had been a year when I walked through the birth story and like remembered those things, I was like, oh my gosh, like it felt healing because there were certain parts that I didn't even know I remembered that I was like saying uh when I was telling the bird story, but then just them holding that space for me and then you know was gonna be shared. Obviously, other people would listen to it and would know, um, maybe would have helped them. Like that kind of gave me so much peace and um healing. But then I think for me, like obviously it's best to avoid a traumatic birth if you can. Um, you can have a difficult birth, you can have an unexpected birth, but I don't think anyone should be traumatized. And I think it's so important to choose your care providers properly, and it may seem like little things like, oh, like I don't wanna um what is it? I like if if someone is like, oh, you're asking too many questions or stuff, that's something I hear here. Like, because people doctors are like, oh, these clients are so difficult because they ask all these questions. It is your right to ask, you know, all the questions, like, and that's for me, that's a red flag. I wouldn't work with a doctor who's gonna be like, you're too much because you're asking questions. I should ask questions, um, you know, like that is my right. Um, or like, you know, even if they disagree with your choices, for me, like, also look out and how they're explaining um the things or how they're trying to discourage you from doing something because sometimes it's very like undermining you saying, like, you don't know what it is or whatever, but it's your body, it's your baby, so you're the ultimate person who's able to decide, even if it doesn't make sense to them, um, you know, medically. So for me, I think it's very important to choose um people. And I think for me, I also encourage for husbands or partners to be very active participants in this. Because I think for me, I know another thing that really helped me is like, I mean, my husband, like, just like anyone, it's not like he came knowing all the things birth related, and that he was like, We're gonna do like you know, an out-of-hospital birth. Like, I would tell him, and then he's like, Yeah, let's learn about it. Like, let's see what it is. Like, what is it? Like, he was curious, but never discouraging, being like, We're not gonna do this. Um, or even if he disagreed, it's like something we would discuss about and I would, you know, present the facts for him. But we watched like a lot of documentaries, you know, we we did take a birth course during my second birth because I felt like I mean I had read so many things and I had learned, but I was like, okay, let me just try to take it up a notch, like and you know, maybe see if that can help me. For me, I don't think it was that helpful because I already knew that information, but I think they had a portion on like partners and fathers. I think he found that helpful, and then we were able like to discuss it and talk about all the things, but I think um partners should be like an integral part of this journey, not just like the moms, because I think um, yeah, I I've seen a lot of partners who just kind of like, yeah, they they don't care, they don't know anything, they're just kind of like whatever. And sometimes they will be that that discouraging voice, you know, when you maybe when you're having a hard labor, there they might be saying, like, just get an epidural and get it over with, you know, like so you do want to make sure you're you're on the same page um with your partner. Um, and then obviously you just um stay open-minded and um, you know, obviously have a plan like if of different scenarios have a birth plan. I don't think it's a bad thing. I think a lot of people sometimes nowadays discourage, oh, if you have a birth plan, you're like bound to this thing. That's not what it means. It's just like you've explored all your options and you know how you would, you know, how you would approach these scenarios if they happen. None of them may happen, one of them may happen, all of them may happen. We don't know that because birth is unexpected. No matter how much we prepare, it's just gonna happen the way it's gonna happen. So it's just like being prepared and also like obviously if there's an emergency, if there is a reason, at least you've kind of gone through those scenarios, and particularly your partner or any of your support people are aware of your wants and desires that they will, you know, be able to support you through that to get um those needs and desires met. Uh, so I think for me it's like, yeah, have a plan, but really uh surround yourself and obviously hire a doula. Like for me, honestly, um, a lot of people say, oh, like, you know, they're like it's expensive, I can't afford this. But for me, honestly, like when I was hiring our doula with our first, we were not in the best financial situation, but I think it was the best investment, truly, for me, more than any gifts I got from a baby shower, whether it's a stroller or what, like none of those things were essentials. But I really encourage you, like, maybe set up a fund instead of a baby shower to get your doula covered or something. Don't let the cost like or it's being expensive. And I think that's obviously um how you it's relative because it's really how we see the values for me. I would rather have a doula than like a fancy donut, whatever stroller um or like fancy gears or a fancy nursery. I never had a nursery, I've never had a nursery till to this day with all three kids. It is absolutely not a necessity.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:56

So I would even a baby shower. I'd rather you pay for my midwife and my doula than throw me a baby shower.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:02

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think I mean for me it's fine to like it's okay to celebrate and have the baby shower, but I think there's so much focus on the stuff you're getting and really just the baby and like not on the mother. But I think yeah, in our cultures in the past, actually, for our culture, we had these cultures where they would um kind of get the flowers for like the porridge and stuff milled, and then it's it, you know, you taste it and it's all women, and then they the idea was for them to walk you through like what motherhood's gonna be like. They give you blessings and they give you their tips and things, but now I think because of obviously social media, the media, and we're very much obsessed and following like more western culture, it's like very western. Everybody's like doing the western baby showers and really forgetting the cultural aspects, and then also again, particularly the most important part is not what you're getting, it's like the wisdom you're getting from um your you know your family members and the fellow mothers in your community. So I think we need to go back to that and focus um on that instead of and there is no problem in celebrating for me. I always don't say if you have the means of absolutely by any means do celebrate. But yeah, for me, if cost is an issue for you, I would absolutely skip that baby shower and get a doula, um, you know, or get lactation support like afterwards, or get a postpartum doula, whatever like is you know available to you, those are things that actually make or break your motherhood journey versus like what kind of stroller um you have, or you know, how many onesies your baby has. Like obviously they're gonna need some clothes, but for me, um I don't think like it's not uh it shouldn't be a priority. So that's what I really encourage um mothers to do, and definitely, you know, read and um like be knowledgeable about your body because I think sometimes a lot of us until we're sorry, either trying to get pregnant or we're pregnant, we don't really um think about like what how our body functions, like how what is our cycle, like how when do we get pregnant? When is our fertile window, or like how do we give birth? What happens like with pregnancy, like with every stage, we are clueless, and then you know, then I think a part of the trauma is also in not knowing that because we're like so detached from how our body works, and so then like everything becomes like you know, it's just so overwhelming for our mind when it's like all of these things are um happening and we can be very withdrawn. So I just encourage you to um, yeah, and I think also please don't listen to the horror stories. Um, or if people tell you, just may you know, know that your story is gonna be different. Because for me, I remember when I was sharing my bird story with my first, like with others, I would always tell like moms, this is my story, it's not gonna be yours because there was like trauma and difficulty with my story, but that doesn't mean that's gonna be you. I'm just sharing this because that was my experience, but like you know, it's not your story, so just don't feel like, oh my gosh, so-and-so had this experience, and you know, had she had done this, this wouldn't have happened. Like people always say that that's not really how it works. Um, you know, your journey is different, so just always focus on um you and not really internalize someone else's story, um, thinking that that's always gonna be like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:41

Okay, well, thank you so much, Jote. And wow, thank you. You're so brave. Just giving your two kids just a chance to be born the way they want to be, really.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:52

Yeah, thank you, thank you. I mean, yeah, I think it's our duty as mothers to give the the best that we can. Um but again, like I said, it's also seeing it like, yeah, we are being born each time we have a baby. We're like, I'm not the same mother I was when I was, you know, when I had my first when I had my second. So just allowing again motherhood to to shape you, maybe sometimes it's gonna break you open, just like let it, and honestly, like you you will find um the person that you're meant to be in that. And I think, yeah, for me, I always tell people that um I think yeah, motherhood is so yeah, transformative, it's just truly incredible. Like and when you say that, sometimes you have people opposing you, like, oh, it's so hard. And I'm like, I'm not trying to say it's not hard by any, yeah. Um, sometimes even the heart is shaping you, the heart is making you who you're who you're meant to be. But obviously, definitely uh, you know, try to have the people around you and um, you know, other mothers around you to to walk this journey with, but it is for me, I'm so grateful. Even after like a traumatic birth, I just let motherhood transform me. Um, but yeah, it really my kids transform me. So yeah, I hope it helps somebody somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 2:08:14

It will. And so you're a lactation consultant. So how can people find you if maybe they want help navigating birth trauma or just they're struggling with breastfeeding?

SPEAKER_00 2:08:25

I mean, if they wanna reach out to me, I do have a website, I do have my Instagram, maybe you'll share because since it's like my name is not sometimes it's not easy, uh, people have a hard time finding me, but maybe you can um put it like yeah, you'll add it for people. That's kind of um where you would find me. Yeah, the birth trauma, maybe we'll we'll do something with it because I I don't, I mean, I don't really do anything about it. Besides, I guess I do share my story and I do share resources. And I think especially after I sharing my third birth, a lot of people are like, wow, like even women who are not um, you know, who are not married, who are not like you know, in the in a place in their life where they're having kids, but they're like, You made me believe that I can do this, you know. Yeah, and I think for me, that is my goal because like to talking about labor birth has always been taboo, and then we don't know about it, and then we go, and especially now with the medical system, we get traumatized, it shouldn't be like that. Like, we should know about it, we should talk about it because it is normal, it is like a part of life, and I think um that's that's what I do right now. Like, it's like encourage you, um, you know, give you resources and things like that. But obviously, if with breastfeeding, whether you want to prepare in the prenatal, um prenatally, or you're having struggles postpartum, you can always um reach out to me. I do in person with for people in Kigali and then um virtual for anyone anywhere. So, yeah, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:02

Thank you so much for the making time.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:05

You're welcome. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:07

I think it was like yeah, I mean it was a long one, but hopefully, three three three stories is not easy to get through. Yeah, it's true, it's true. Yeah, so all right, we'll see you soon. Maybe you can come on and talk about the utopian postpartum practices.

SPEAKER_00 2:10:23

Oh, I would love that. Bye-bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 2:10:31

And that's a wrap for today's episode. If this conversation sparks something in you, share it with someone who needs to hear it so they can feel a little more confident and a lot less alone. We would love to hear from you, so leave a comment and follow the pod so you don't miss any new episodes. We're building a community and we'd love for you to be part of it. Until next time, take care of yourself.